If you haven’t been following the story that closely, don’t feel bad, you’re not alone. Here’s a quick refresher.
- In January reports started surfacing about the GT-R beating the Porsche 997 Turbo in every test thrown at it. Soon there after various print and online automotive rags started a feeding frenzy about the proposed capabilities of the GT-R.
- Over the next few months, the reports kept coming in and as production versions of the GT-R were made available to the automotive press, more and more test were conducted with the results mixed.
- Meanwhile in the Porsche camp, at places like Rennlist, the debates raged as to whether the tests were accurate, fair and representative of real world conditions. At the heart of the discussion were questions about the tires used on the GT-R vs those used on the Porsche.
- In early February, we received confirmation from a 993C4S.com reader that the translation of the comments on the Japanese car shows (where most of the controversy started) did indeed suggest that the tires on the Porsche were worn and not comparable to that on the GT-R. Nothing earth shattering here, just good to know and adds a little color.
- Later in the month, Chris Harris, of Autocar Magazine, added even more fuel to the already raging fire when he declared the Porsche GT3 the winner over the GT-R even though the Nissan put up a slightly faster lap time.
- For the next few months the subject of Nissan GT-R vs. Porsche provided good content for readers of places like Autoblog and Jalopnik to continue the name calling and finger pointing (not to mention the repeated cry for tests against the Corvette Z06)
- At the end of April, the beginning of May, Nissan made a public announcement showcasing their record time around the Nurburgring of 7 minutes and 29 seconds. A full 11 seconds faster than the best time achieved by the Porsche 997 Turbo
Clinton Deacon of World Car Fans ended a post on the subject with the following line:
The world can now look forward to a response from the GT-R’s main competitor, the Porsche 911 Turbo whose best time stands at a lowly 7 minutes and 40 seconds.
Porsche fires a shot at Nissan
For almost four (4) months it looked like Deacon was wrong. Porsche stayed silent on the subject. Then, just this week in an interview with Carsguide.com, Porsche’s August Achleitner, the 911 product chief said in reference to the GT-R’s purported “ring” time,
This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car. For us, it’s not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tyres.
According to Carguides.com, Achleitner believes the time achieved by Nissan, with ex-Formula One driver Toshio Suzuki, would only be possible with a semi-slick race-style tire. You see, Porsche had procured their own production GT-R and ran it on the Nurburgring with their own driver against their own car(s). The results were predictable; The GT-R’s time came in at 7 minute and 54 seconds as compared to 7 minutes and 38 seconds for the 911 Turbo. It should be noted that these times were done on the same day, in the same weather conditions, with the same driver in each car.
To us, it’s understandable why Porsche calls into question the lightning like results claimed by Nissan. If they are true, it would make the Nissan GT-R the second fastest production car around the ring ever (the number one spot going to the Pagani Zonda F.) While that in itself isn’t the issue, the biggest problem with Nissan’s claim is that according to published horsepower, the GT-R is on par with the 911 Turbo, yet 20 kilos (44 lbs) heavier. That’s a big weight difference and one that would be hard to get past when shaving more than 10 seconds off of your lap time.
Nissan and Porsche you can Stop the Flame War
Here’s an idea. Let’s put this argument to rest once and for all. One of the better suggestions we’ve seen to date comes from a reader over at Autoblog. He suggests the following:
I don’t want to step out of line here…I know how much empty speculation means to a lot of people here. But, you know, maybe Porsche and Nissan could meet at the ‘ring’ — Porsche with their cars and Nissan with its car — and actually test their cars…together. I know it’s a really odd concept, but work with me here.
- Porsche brings the 911 Turbo, GT3 and GT2
- Nissan brings the GT-R
- Mechanics from Porsche get to inspect the GT-R
- Mechanics from Nissan get to inspect the Turbo, GT3 and GT2
- Once everyone is satisfied, each car gets 3-laps on the ‘ring
- Toshio Suzuki drives the Nissan and Walter Rohrl drives the Porsches
With the best of three laps recorded for each car, they can put this stupid flame war to rest.
What a great suggestion. Porsche? Nissan? What do you say? Can we get this done? Or, is the publicity (good or bad) just too much to give up?
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View Comments (16)
John, awesome summary of the GT-R / 911 Turbo tongue lashing currently going on! It will be interesting to see the outcome!
Another issue that needs resolved is the true power coming from the GT-R's engine -- each one's hand-built in a hermetically sealed room at a lab in the bottom of the pacific ocean, protected by flying sharks with rocket launchers, etc etc etc. Each GT-R's powerplant is somewhat different, so that's kind of neat for the consumer, but at the same time, it seems that it would be very easy for Nissan to make a "ringer" GT-R to take on the 'ring. I'm not saying I'm against their hand-built construction process, but I think the cars that they test should not be built or tuned differently from any of the production models.
@Andrew,
Very good point! The other thing is let's get this car on a dyno. What is it really producing for HP? we've heard numbers all over the board.
@Anthony,
Thanks for the compliment. Would love to see Porsche step up and set-up a head to head. Would make for a great story.
Ugh, who cares. Even as the biggest P-car fan out there this seems so overdone.
And really, with an objective eye the GTR is the clear winner due to its cost being so much less than a GT3, GT2 or Turbo. Hell, you could by many sets of race tires with the the money you save over initial purchase price.
The P-car is better looking. The GTR is a bit faster. Both go the same speed in commuter traffic.
The GTR is not the first car to be faster than a Porsche, nor will it be the last. We love Porsches not for out and out speed and lap times but for their balance, endurance, build quality, heritage and enthusiast network.
I agree. If we assume that the GTR is somewhat faster around the Nurburgring, I say so what. Anyone who really wants a Porsche is not going to settle for a Datsun, no matter how fast it is. I also think that there aren't many people who are trying to make a purchase decision that would be swayed by this data unless they were 20 something boy racers with rich daddies who were looking to buy bragging rights.
@ Kevin,
I agree with most of what you say.
The biggest point I was trying to make was/is why did Porsche fire another shot?
I don't even think the two cars are comparable. Yes, they have similar HP and similar weight, but that's it. They are built for two completely different audiences (in my opinion.)
I don't think anyone considering a 911 Turbo is going to change their mind because of a price difference. Not that Porsche people are dripping in money, but they are buying the car for so many more reasons than just HP and top speed (as you so succinctly summed up.)
That is brilliant. When I heard that the Nissan GT-R had a lap time faster than the GT2, I thought that it was impossible. The GT2 has 50 more horsepower and weighs about 500 lbs less than the GT-R. It also has unbeatable traction. Reading this passage was a big relief. Now i know that a GT-R can't even beat a 911 Turbo. From what this passage states, the 911 Turbo left it in the dust. It probably couldn't beat a GT3 either. Very few cars can beat a Porsche around the Nurburgring. HAHA my faith in Porsche is completely restored.
I agree, it was very poor of Porsche to do this. The auto press community would have done the research on these times soon enough.
993C4S, maybe they'll fly you over to do the test?
@Kevin,
Another brilliant idea! You sir are destined for greatness. Porsche, are you listening???
so now we have finally reached this discussion...
well here's my two cents, GT-R vs. Porsche...
the 911 turbo is an all wheel drive 3.6 litre with a twin turbo. it has roughly 450 hp once you take into consideration of the hp loss. its curb weight is round 3486 pounds. it also has a price tag of $125000.
Now the GT-R has a 3.8 litre twin turbocharged engine. it produces about 425 hp once you acoount for the loss of power. its curb weight is around 3850 pounds. and has a price tag of $90,000.
Now im not a math major, but when u do the math, the GT-R has roughly 9 lbs per hp, whilst the Porsche has about 7.75 lbs. per hp. Can anyone explain how the GT-R can do what it claims it can do? And the fact that it has .2 more litres... im really confused. Unless the GT-R was driven by a GT racer ad the Porsche by an average joe person..
the Porsche has an actual manual transmission where as the GT-R has a slap stick. if thats how its gonna be, put the GT-R against a Carrera with the same hp and a PDK. The GT-R would lose that race hands down.
as far as the price goes, the GT-R is about $35,000 less than the 911 Turbo. But when you think about it, your dropping $90,000 on a Nissan!
This battle isnt by far over with yet. Nissan is making a lot of claims, and Porsche has a lot more to prove. This GT-R is just like every other Japanese car. Its targeted towards something and falls short of what it was suppose to do. dont expect too many great things from the GT-R that Porsche hasnt already accomplished.
have i forgotten anything? lemme know what you guys think.
@Caleb,
Good summary. To me it makes no difference what the Nissan can or can't do, as I'm not in the market for a Nissan. With that said, let's not take anything away from what Nissan has accomplished. They have built a true super-car with every day driving capabilities, with the performance characteristics that allow it to compete with cars like Porsche.
What I was so shocked about was the idea that Porsche would acknowledge it and add validity to the claims (true or not.)
Now, Nissan is commenting on Porsche's comments and the flame war is back on!!! New post on that coming shortly.